Today’s debate is a showdown between two beloved stories — Matilda vs. Alice in Wonderland! Author and “Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest” podcast host Adam Gidwitz defends Roald Dahl’s tale of brainpower and rebellion, while filmmaker and rapper Jun Sekiya sings the praises of Lewis Carroll’s whimsical world of wonder. Who will be crowned the Smash Boom Best? Vote below for the team YOU think won!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $5/month (or $45/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
Audio Transcript
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MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: From the Brains behind Brains On!, it's Smash Boom Best.
ELSA: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two beloved stories, Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland. Author and "Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest" podcast host Adam Gidwitz is here to defend Roald Dahl's tale of brainpower and rebellion for Team Matilda
ADAM GIDWITZ: Kids who love books forever!
MOLLY BLOOM: And filmmaker and rapper Jun Sekiya is here to sing the praises of Lewis Carroll's whimsical world of wonder for Team Alice in Wonderland.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Down, down the rabbit hole we go. Alice is here to steal the show.
MOLLY BLOOM: And here to judge it all is Elsa from Minneapolis. Elsa loves being in speech at school in the humorous category, is going through a major Dolly Parton phase. And, check this out, has played both Matilda and Alice on stage. Hi, Elsa.
ELSA: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Elsa, you are truly the expert here. What do you love about Matilda and Alice? And what do you feel like you learned about them playing them on stage?
ELSA: Yes. Well, it's so fun to have a special connection with both of them. With Matilda, she really uses her knowledge as a power, I guess, to take her friends and everybody around her through this journey of rebellion.
And then Alice in Wonderland, what I really like is that, she's in this whole other world, is experiencing all of these fantastical sort of experiences. So it's very cool. They're both very different, yet very similar at the same time.
MOLLY BLOOM: What would you feel like is their main similarity?
ELSA: That they're both very curious. They're both very curious, and they both want to learn more and see what there is more to the world.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what about their main differences?
ELSA: I think that Alice is more prim and proper, and Matilda is a bit more tough and wants to really learn and read. So I think that those are the major differences between the two.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you have any advice for our debaters today as an experienced judge?
ELSA: Good luck. And I wish both of you the best.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh. So wonderful. Well, will Elsa side with Adam or Jun? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro-Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Elsa, will award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. Adam, Jun, and Elsa. Are you ready?
ELSA: Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Let's do it. So ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then, they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin. And Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Matilda such a thrill-da.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda is easily one of the greatest stories of all time. It's about an extraordinary little girl who lives with two of the meanest, most ignorant parents ever. They refuse to get her books. "What's wrong with the telly?," they want to know. So she starts sneaking out to the library, where she reads every single book in the children's section, and then moves on to grown-up books like Great Expectations.
By the time she starts school, she can do high school work. But the cruel principal, Miss Trunchbull, forces her to stay in first grade. Matilda is powerfully bored and furious at the injustices Miss Trunchbull visits upon her classmates. She is so bored, in fact, and so furious, that one day something strange happens.
And now, quite slowly, there began to creep over Matilda a most extraordinary and peculiar feeling. A sense of power was brewing in those eyes of hers. And all of a sudden, she found she was frightened by nobody in the world.
And that is when Matilda becomes a superhero. But before she becomes a hero, Matilda is just a kid who feels utterly powerless, a kid who's pushed aside by nearly every adult in her life. Here's just one example. Her father is a used car salesman who cheats his customers. When Matilda finds out, she is appalled.
MATILDA: But Daddy, that's disgusting. You're cheating people who trust you.
MATILDA'S FATHER: If you don't like it, then don't eat the food in this house. It's bought with the profits.
MATILDA: It's dirty money. I hate it.
MATILDA'S FATHER: Who the heck do you think you are? The Archbishop of Canterbury or something? Preaching to me about honesty. You're just an ignorant little squirt who hasn't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But Matilda won't be kept down for long, and she fights back with amazing pranks, which brings me to the first reason why Matilda is so incredible. Even if this book were nothing more than a prank manual, the pranks alone would make it one of the most useful books of all time. From supergluing the inside of your dad's favorite hat just before he puts it on--
MATILDA'S FATHER: What is this? My hat won't come off. Help, help!
ADAM GIDWITZ: --to putting your mom's hair dye in your dad's shampoo bottle--
MATILDA'S FATHER: My hair. Holy moly, I'm platinum blonde.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --to putting a newt in your headmistress's drink--
MISS TRUNCHBULL: [SLURPS]
What the.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Any one of these pranks will get you in such deep trouble that you definitely should not try them at home. But they're good, aren't they? Soon, even the pranks aren't enough, though. At school, the evil Miss Trunchbull uses her power and Olympic-level athletic ability to terrify students and teachers alike.
And it's here that Matilda becomes a superhero. Her pent up brilliance finally finds an outlet through her eyeballs. She can move objects with her eyes. And with this superpower, she begins a campaign to scare the Trunchbull so badly that she will ultimately flee town, freeing them all.
You see, Matilda isn't just a brilliant and lovable girl. She overcomes her mother, her father, and Miss Trunchbull to free herself and her whole school. She doesn't just accept her fate. She creates her own destiny. But the story of Matilda isn't just her story. It's all of our stories.
We're not all geniuses who learn to read at the age of two, much less have so much unused brainpower we learn to move things with our eyes. But there have been times, for all of us, when we have felt unappreciated. Matilda's parents and the Trunchbull refused to see that she's special, when nothing could be more obvious and plain to us, the readers.
It makes us scream with rage and indignation how blind they are to the simple, kind, extraordinary specialness of this tiny girl. We have all felt like screaming with rage when someone has refused to see what is good and right and special about a situation, or a person, or about us.
MATILDA: Why don't the other kids like me at school? Why doesn't my teacher ever call me? When will my parents see what's really special about me instead of just finding things to criticize?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda is just an extreme example of how we all feel. And so her incredible triumph at the end is satisfying because it isn't just her victory, it is ours, too.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. A declaration of greatness about a girl who can move things with her mind. And Adam has moved us all with his words. Elsa, what stood out to you about Adam's declaration of greatness?
ELSA: Well, I love how he went through Matilda's journey of gaining her powers. And I could really envision everything when he was telling it. It was almost like I was there. And it really felt like a story, which was really nice tie to Matilda.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Jun, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why is Matilda is meh. You've got 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
JUN SEKIYA: So Adam talks about as a superhero, which I think is an interesting choice of words, because to me, is a super villain. That's how Roald Dahl was actually first trying to write Matilda as a character who uses her telekinetic powers to torment her parents and teachers.
And if you look at the book, the seed of that is actually still there, because as terrible as her parents are, she's essentially teaching children that it's OK to fight fire with fire.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Adam, anything you'd like to say in return?
ADAM GIDWITZ: If fighting cruel and stupid adults with superpowers is wrong, I don't want to be right.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
Jun, it is your turn. Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
JUN SEKIYA: Drop the beat.
(SINGING) Ladies and gentlemen
Esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best
I'd like to start with a few rhymes, yo
Catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the wonderland of standing up with Alice, yo
The competition Matilda's just an average show
Now let me introduce you to our cast of charactos
I mean characters
Sorry, I'm a bad rapper
But at least, I'm not as tacky as the mad hatter
At his tea party, crunching on a jam platter
And a teacup
Now listen to the glass shatter
How about Tweedledum
Do I even need a pun
A synonym for silliness
Relieving all your tedium with Tweedledee
Have you ever met a match running out of time
Haven't even got the Cheshire Cat
A treasure stash of characters and fun jewels
No dumb rules, no humdrum school
No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull
Wonderland's munching on Matilda like lunchables
Alice in Wonderland, ladies and gentlemen
Ah, number one on top
Greatest of all time
Yeah, let's go, ooh
So look, raps aside. I like the book Matilda. It's funny, easy to read, and has one really memorable character. But Alice in Wonderland and all of its incredible characters are in another league. Why? Let's spill the tea.
First, Alice in Wonderland is truly old school. It was written more than 150 years ago, in 1865, when Abraham Lincoln was president and the height of fashion was wearing big skirts over literal steel cages. Back then, there weren't many books for kids, and the ones that did exist were often about lazy or disobedient kids being punished and learning their lesson.
Enter Alice's adventures in wonderland. Alice blew the door open for kids books that were pure fun. If you haven't read it, the story is truly wild. It's about a little girl named Alice who falls down a rabbit hole and enters a fantasy world called Wonderland. There, she meets all sorts of rude-talking animals and has to escape a bloodthirsty queen.
Reading Alice in Wonderland is like watching an ultra lush IMAX movie. Enchanted mushrooms, giant blue caterpillars, croquet mallet clubs made of live flamingos-- it's your wildest, weirdest dream scenarios brought to vivid life.
ALICE: Oh, tiger lily, I wish you could talk.
TIGER LILY: Well, of course, I can talk, when there's anybody worth talking to.
ALICE: And can all the flowers talk?
TIGER LILY: Oh, the daisies are the worst of all. It's enough to make one wither the way they go on.
JUN SEKIYA: That's right. Alice has a conversation with a literal flower. Seriously, there are so many strange and magical attractions packed in this story, reading it is like going to a theme park. Which makes sense because Alice in Wonderland was one of the biggest inspirations for Walt Disney himself.
When Walt was a young cartoonist, just starting out, he moved to Los Angeles with only a single small suitcase. Inside was a short cartoon he'd made inspired by, you guessed it, Alice in Wonderland. But Alice in Wonderland has inspired even more.
From bands like the Beatles to movies like The Matrix, to singers like Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift, Alice has influenced generations of art, music, and movies. And that's because you can interpret the story however you want.
Ask 100 people what the story means, and you'll get 100 different answers. Is it a story about how kids should grow up or about how adults should grow down and be less serious? Is it an allegory about food, about the queen of England, about language and logic? Yes to all of the above. You, the reader, get to choose your own adventure.
Matilda is great. But in the end, it's a pretty narrow story about the good guys beating the bad ones, which doesn't leave much room for interpretation. And for that, you've got to give the edge to wonderland, to the queen you love to hate, to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, to mad silly fun and Cheshire Cat grins. The tea has been spilt and there's no way to put it back in the pot. No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull. Wonderland's munching on Matilda like lunchables.
[APPLAUSE]
MOLLY BLOOM: A jam-packed and rap-packed argument there for Alice in Wonderland. Incredible. Elsa, what stood out to you about Jun's declaration of greatness?
ELSA: First of all, I loved the rap and how he used that to tell Alice's story. I loved how he described, in great detail, what wonderland looks like. And it was awesome being able to hear how the story inspires and continues to inspire so many people, especially like Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga. That was really nice to hear.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Adam, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why thinking of Alice fills you with malice. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
ADAM GIDWITZ: First of all, malice, Alice does not fill me with malice. I love that book. But who is Alice? She's a character who isn't really fleshed out at all. We don't really know much about her emotionally, and it's, therefore, really hard to connect with her. The book ends up feeling a little bit more like a series of random puzzles and weird things. But if the whole thing were wrapped by Jun, maybe I would change my vote to Alice. That's definitely possible.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Jun, do you have anything you'd like to say in response?
JUN SEKIYA: Yeah, I think that's part of its strength because it allows the reader to put themselves into Alice's shoes and experience wonderland for themselves. So I don't think that's a weakness at all, actually.
MOLLY BLOOM: Elsa, you've heard the arguments, and it's time to award some points. Please give 1 point to the declaration of greatness you liked best and 1 point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Jun and Adam, how are you two feeling so far?
ADAM GIDWITZ: I was feeling great until Jun started to rap. I was like, I have this in the bag. And then the rapping started, and I was like, forget it.
JUN SEKIYA: I'm a little nervous. I'm not going to lie, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's time for a quick break. Devour a chapter of your latest book and get ready for a tea party.
ELSA: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
CREW: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe inspiring argumentation.
TODD DOUGLAS: Howdy ho, debater rinos. I'm Todd Douglas, and I'm here with the ranch to my celery sticks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Taylor Lincoln. And would you believe it, we just caught another logical fallacy?
TODD DOUGLAS: Logical fallacies are debate no-nos that make your argument so, so much weaker.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: We just saw someone use the false dichotomy fallacy. That's when a person makes it seem like there are only two sides to an argument, even though there are many different sides. Check it out.
JENNY: Hey, JoJo, do you want an apple? They're delicious.
JOJO: No thanks. I'm good.
JENNY: What? You just hate apples?
JOJO: That's not what I said.
JENNY: Well, either you like them or you don't. If you don't want this apple, well, you must really not like apples.
JOJO: Not true, Jenny. I just had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and I'm still full.
JENNY: Just admit you hate apples, JoJo.
JOJO: Exsqueeze me. That's a false dichotomy. Just because I don't want an apple right now doesn't necessarily mean I don't like them. I'm just too full. And there could be lots of other reasons I don't want an apple. Maybe I just brushed my teeth, or I only like Granny Smiths, or maybe I'm allergic.
JENNY: Oh, whoopsie-daisy. My bad. Sorry for getting ahead of myself. This should be a fallacy-free friendship.
JOJO: No worries. Save me an apple for later.
JENNY: You got it.
TODD DOUGLAS: JoJo stopped that false dichotomy fallacy in its tracks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Right. Things are rarely black and white. There are usually lots of different sides to a story or an argument.
TODD DOUGLAS: And in this case, many different sides to a snack. Speaking of, I've got a hankering for a Honeycrisp.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh! Make that two tickets to Crunch Town. We'll catch you next time on State of Debate.
CREW: Brains On! universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[PLANE BOOM]
ALIEN: It's alien laundry day. While I wash my nose mufflers and tummy togas, I'll listen to a new podcast. hee, hee, hee! How about Forever Ago, my favorite history podcast?
CHILD: Whoa, I was not expecting that to work or for it to sound this good.
WOMAN: That's the DJ Dolo Technique.
[AIR HORNS BLOW]
CREW: DJ Dolo!
WOMAN: When I say pizza, you say bagel. Pizza.
CHILD: Bage--
ALIEN: Zorp, signal down. Ugh! Stay right there, Tummy Togas. Must find Forever Ago now.
MAN: Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts.
CREW: Smash Boom Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
ELSA: And I'm your judge, Elsa.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this playful debate idea from Rory.
RORY: My name is Rory, and I'm from Pella, Iowa. My debate idea is slinkys versus slap bracelets.
ELSA: Both bouncy, delightful, and nostalgic as heck.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Rory think should win.
ELSA: And now, it's back to our debate, Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
CREW: Micro-Round.
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro-Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Adam and Jun, the prompt was "baddie reputation." In this challenge, a villain from each side needs to clear their reputation.
They want to set the record straight about how they're really not that bad. Will they redeem themselves? It's up to Elsa to decide. Adam went first last time. So, Jun, you're up. Do your best to clear the reputation of a baddie from Alice in Wonderland.
[GAVEL BANGS]
JUDGE: Order. Order in the court. We will now hear the arguments of the defendant.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Thank you, good sir. I, the Queen of Hearts, rightful sovereign of Wonderland, am accused of being a tyrant. While it's true I have a flair for ruthless rhetoric, I am, above all, a community builder.
Think of how disconnected we all live from each other-- the caterpillar on its mushroom, the Cheshire Cat in its tree, the Mad Hatter at his sad little tea party in the woods. Oh, hoo, hoo, hoo! Where would we be without my croquet games to bring us together? Drifting apart, wrapped up in our own selfish little lives.
JUDGE: And what do you say to the accusation that you randomly sentence people to death?
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Oh, good sir. I'd like to point to your use of the word in a sentence, as there is a great difference between a death sentence and a death doing. One is a sentence and, therefore, just said, while the other is an action and, therefore, done. And if you consult the record, you will see that I have never done any death.
JUDGE: That can't be right. [PAGES RUSTLING] By Jove, her rulings are never enforced.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Action, that is, the lack of it, speaks louder than words.
JUDGE: I'm afraid the defendant is right. The Queen of Hearts is innocent.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Innocent? Are you calling me naive?
JUDGE: Order. Order in the court!
QUEEN OF HEARTS: You dare command the queen? Off with your head.
MOLLY BLOOM: [laughs] Wow, a shocking courtroom twist there. Adam, it is your turn. Let's hear from a baddie in the world of Matilda.
HARRY WORMWOOD: Well, it's going to be another great day of swindling suckers out of their money. [CLEARS THROAT] I mean, selling quality used cars for fair prices. [LAUGHS] Oh, Harry Wormwood, you're cleverer than the whole lot of them put together, aren't you? You handsome devil. Where's that hair oil? Ah, here it is.
Work it in with your fingertips, old boy. Make those black locks shine. Yes, you're handsome and clever and rich, and a very good father, too. So why won't that nasty little pimple, Matilda, do as you say? Blast it. You tear up one of her library books, and she acts like you committed a crime. You're just looking out for what's best for her. No one reads anymore. Watch more telly. That's what I say.
And she tried to shame you for playing a few harmless tricks on your customers. How naive can she be? Everyone cheats. And if they don't, they're getting cheated. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and you're the biggest, toughest, handsomest dog out there, old boy. Ugh, and all the thinking Matilda does. Who wants a kid who thinks?
You know what they say about people who think too much? They've got their heads up their aaa! What's wrong with my hair? Oh, my beautiful hair! It's platinum blonde. Matilda. Matilda is behind this you bet your bottom dollar. Matilda! Matilda!
MATILDA: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Poor Mr. Wormwood can't get through his daily ablutions without pranks. Poor guy. Elsa, what did you like about Adam and Jun's micro-rounds?
ELSA: For Jun's, I loved how the Queen acted and how she claimed that she brought people together. And then for Adam's I loved how Mr. Wormwood was just talking to himself and kind of hyping himself up in a way.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah.
ELSA: I thought that was pretty funny.
MOLLY BLOOM: Doing his-- what do they call it?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Like his morning, or his affirmations.
MOLLY BLOOM: Affirmations.
ELSA: Yes, affirmation.
MOLLY BLOOM: Doing his daily affirmations into the mirror. Please award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Fantastic. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's sneak attack is called by any other name.
Let's say your story didn't have a name, or that Matilda and Alice in Wonderland were not options for titles. We want you to come up with three alternative titles for your side. For example, if your challenge was for the movie Frozen, your alternative title might be Snow Sisters or Winter's Chilling Embrace, or Don't Get Engaged to a Sketchy Prince You Met at a Party. Does all of this make sense?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yes.
JUN SEKIYA: Yep.
MOLLY BLOOM: So we're going to start with Adam, and we will take turns going back and forth. So Adam, let's hear your first alternate title for Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda Wormwood's Infinite Guide to the Best Pranks of All Time.
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Jun, it is your turn. Let's hear your first alternate title for Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Super Color Wonder World.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice. Love it. Adam, your second alternative title, please.
ADAM GIDWITZ: The Tragedy of the Trunchbull.
MOLLY BLOOM: Another-- is that a wicked-type tale where we are rehabbing?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah, we get her side of it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Jun, your turn again. Let's hear your second alternative title for Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Alice and the Queen Who Set Off With Her Head.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Love it. Very descriptive. Adam, let's hear your final title for Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Power Eyeballs. That's a number one bestseller right there. Come on, number one.
MOLLY BLOOM: How could you not want to pick up that book? Jun, what is your last alternative title for Alice in Wonderland?
JUN SEKIYA: Annoying Talking Animals-- A Tour.
MOLLY BLOOM: Did you say Annoying Talking Animals Tour?
JUN SEKIYA: Yeah, a colon, "A Tour."
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Again, another book that I would not be able to pass up. Elsa, please think about these excellent alternative titles and think about which side impressed you the most. And please award your fourth point.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. Then it's time for our final round, The Final Six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Jun, let's hear your six words for making people see the wonder of Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Wonder-filled seed of million worlds.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. Adam, it's your turn. Please give us six words on the majesty of Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Girl genius, fighting stupidity and cruelty.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very nice. Elsa, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
ELSA: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: The drum roll, please. And the winner is--
[DRUM ROLL]
ELSA: Matilda!
JUN SEKIYA: No!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Woo hoo!
JUN SEKIYA: No!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Thank you, Elsa.
MOLLY BLOOM: What was the moment that really decided it? What was your favorite part?
ELSA: Ooh, I think the Micro-Round. That was really it for me. I thought it was really funny.
ADAM GIDWITZ: It was all about hearing Mr. Wormwood brush his teeth.
ELSA: Yes. Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah. The depiction of that, whoever-- the fact that you guys actually found Mr. Wormwood and got him to brush his teeth into a mic was really unbelievable. He nailed it.
MOLLY BLOOM: He didn't have a lot going on, so he helped us out.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jun is not only an incredible actor, but also an incredible researcher. I thought I knew about Alice in Wonderland. And I learned a lot more from his Declaration of Greatness. So it's an amazing job.
JUN SEKIYA: Thank you. So Adam, going in, I was already so afraid because I listened to his previous Smash Boom Best debates. And he did not disappoint. He came with so many witty angles on what made Matilda so great. And I could tell how much he loved the book. It came through in his Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, excellent work to both of you. That is it for today's debate battle. Elsa crowned Matilda the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
ELSA: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Derek Ramirez and Gary O'Keefe with sound design by--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: --with fact-checking by Rebecca Rand. And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
RABECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
- And.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joann Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Elsa for inspiring me from the very beginning with her love of Matilda.
ELSA: Oh, thank you.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's so nice. And how about you, Jun? Any special shout outs?
JUN SEKIYA: I'm going to shout out my mom, my sister, and my dad, just because I-- not often on radio. And then Elsa for having such a crazy life story with playing both of those characters-- probably the best person on the planet to judge this debate. And then So Min, my mentor who got me on. I tried to avenge you, So Min and beat Adam, but I could not cut the mustard in the end. And I'm sorry.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Ha, ha, ha!
MOLLY BLOOM: And how about you, Elsa? Any special thanks or shout outs?
ELSA: Well, both of you. You both did an amazing job. My parents, and all my friends at school.
MOLLY BLOOM: Before we go, let's check in and see who Rory thinks should win the slinkys versus slap bracelets debate.
RORY: I think slinkys would win because they have more than one purpose, and they are more fun to play with.
ELSA: Smash Boom Best is a nonprofit public radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And while you're at it, join Smarty Pass for bonus episodes and ad free versions of all four shows in the Brains On! Universe.
We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week, hamsters versus goldfish.
ELSA: Bye.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Keep reading.
JUN SEKIYA: Bye, guys.
MOLLY BLOOM: Ta-ta.
[THEME SONG]
(SINGING) You have the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you have the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
ADAM GIDWITZ: Nailed it. No notes.
JUN SEKIYA: It's the cherry on top.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nailed it.
ELSA: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two beloved stories, Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland. Author and "Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest" podcast host Adam Gidwitz is here to defend Roald Dahl's tale of brainpower and rebellion for Team Matilda
ADAM GIDWITZ: Kids who love books forever!
MOLLY BLOOM: And filmmaker and rapper Jun Sekiya is here to sing the praises of Lewis Carroll's whimsical world of wonder for Team Alice in Wonderland.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Down, down the rabbit hole we go. Alice is here to steal the show.
MOLLY BLOOM: And here to judge it all is Elsa from Minneapolis. Elsa loves being in speech at school in the humorous category, is going through a major Dolly Parton phase. And, check this out, has played both Matilda and Alice on stage. Hi, Elsa.
ELSA: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, Elsa, you are truly the expert here. What do you love about Matilda and Alice? And what do you feel like you learned about them playing them on stage?
ELSA: Yes. Well, it's so fun to have a special connection with both of them. With Matilda, she really uses her knowledge as a power, I guess, to take her friends and everybody around her through this journey of rebellion.
And then Alice in Wonderland, what I really like is that, she's in this whole other world, is experiencing all of these fantastical sort of experiences. So it's very cool. They're both very different, yet very similar at the same time.
MOLLY BLOOM: What would you feel like is their main similarity?
ELSA: That they're both very curious. They're both very curious, and they both want to learn more and see what there is more to the world.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what about their main differences?
ELSA: I think that Alice is more prim and proper, and Matilda is a bit more tough and wants to really learn and read. So I think that those are the major differences between the two.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you have any advice for our debaters today as an experienced judge?
ELSA: Good luck. And I wish both of you the best.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh. So wonderful. Well, will Elsa side with Adam or Jun? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro-Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Elsa, will award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. Adam, Jun, and Elsa. Are you ready?
ELSA: Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Let's do it. So ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then, they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin. And Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Matilda such a thrill-da.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda is easily one of the greatest stories of all time. It's about an extraordinary little girl who lives with two of the meanest, most ignorant parents ever. They refuse to get her books. "What's wrong with the telly?," they want to know. So she starts sneaking out to the library, where she reads every single book in the children's section, and then moves on to grown-up books like Great Expectations.
By the time she starts school, she can do high school work. But the cruel principal, Miss Trunchbull, forces her to stay in first grade. Matilda is powerfully bored and furious at the injustices Miss Trunchbull visits upon her classmates. She is so bored, in fact, and so furious, that one day something strange happens.
And now, quite slowly, there began to creep over Matilda a most extraordinary and peculiar feeling. A sense of power was brewing in those eyes of hers. And all of a sudden, she found she was frightened by nobody in the world.
And that is when Matilda becomes a superhero. But before she becomes a hero, Matilda is just a kid who feels utterly powerless, a kid who's pushed aside by nearly every adult in her life. Here's just one example. Her father is a used car salesman who cheats his customers. When Matilda finds out, she is appalled.
MATILDA: But Daddy, that's disgusting. You're cheating people who trust you.
MATILDA'S FATHER: If you don't like it, then don't eat the food in this house. It's bought with the profits.
MATILDA: It's dirty money. I hate it.
MATILDA'S FATHER: Who the heck do you think you are? The Archbishop of Canterbury or something? Preaching to me about honesty. You're just an ignorant little squirt who hasn't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But Matilda won't be kept down for long, and she fights back with amazing pranks, which brings me to the first reason why Matilda is so incredible. Even if this book were nothing more than a prank manual, the pranks alone would make it one of the most useful books of all time. From supergluing the inside of your dad's favorite hat just before he puts it on--
MATILDA'S FATHER: What is this? My hat won't come off. Help, help!
ADAM GIDWITZ: --to putting your mom's hair dye in your dad's shampoo bottle--
MATILDA'S FATHER: My hair. Holy moly, I'm platinum blonde.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --to putting a newt in your headmistress's drink--
MISS TRUNCHBULL: [SLURPS]
What the.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Any one of these pranks will get you in such deep trouble that you definitely should not try them at home. But they're good, aren't they? Soon, even the pranks aren't enough, though. At school, the evil Miss Trunchbull uses her power and Olympic-level athletic ability to terrify students and teachers alike.
And it's here that Matilda becomes a superhero. Her pent up brilliance finally finds an outlet through her eyeballs. She can move objects with her eyes. And with this superpower, she begins a campaign to scare the Trunchbull so badly that she will ultimately flee town, freeing them all.
You see, Matilda isn't just a brilliant and lovable girl. She overcomes her mother, her father, and Miss Trunchbull to free herself and her whole school. She doesn't just accept her fate. She creates her own destiny. But the story of Matilda isn't just her story. It's all of our stories.
We're not all geniuses who learn to read at the age of two, much less have so much unused brainpower we learn to move things with our eyes. But there have been times, for all of us, when we have felt unappreciated. Matilda's parents and the Trunchbull refused to see that she's special, when nothing could be more obvious and plain to us, the readers.
It makes us scream with rage and indignation how blind they are to the simple, kind, extraordinary specialness of this tiny girl. We have all felt like screaming with rage when someone has refused to see what is good and right and special about a situation, or a person, or about us.
MATILDA: Why don't the other kids like me at school? Why doesn't my teacher ever call me? When will my parents see what's really special about me instead of just finding things to criticize?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda is just an extreme example of how we all feel. And so her incredible triumph at the end is satisfying because it isn't just her victory, it is ours, too.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. A declaration of greatness about a girl who can move things with her mind. And Adam has moved us all with his words. Elsa, what stood out to you about Adam's declaration of greatness?
ELSA: Well, I love how he went through Matilda's journey of gaining her powers. And I could really envision everything when he was telling it. It was almost like I was there. And it really felt like a story, which was really nice tie to Matilda.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Jun, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why is Matilda is meh. You've got 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
JUN SEKIYA: So Adam talks about as a superhero, which I think is an interesting choice of words, because to me, is a super villain. That's how Roald Dahl was actually first trying to write Matilda as a character who uses her telekinetic powers to torment her parents and teachers.
And if you look at the book, the seed of that is actually still there, because as terrible as her parents are, she's essentially teaching children that it's OK to fight fire with fire.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Adam, anything you'd like to say in return?
ADAM GIDWITZ: If fighting cruel and stupid adults with superpowers is wrong, I don't want to be right.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
Jun, it is your turn. Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
JUN SEKIYA: Drop the beat.
(SINGING) Ladies and gentlemen
Esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best
I'd like to start with a few rhymes, yo
Catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the wonderland of standing up with Alice, yo
The competition Matilda's just an average show
Now let me introduce you to our cast of charactos
I mean characters
Sorry, I'm a bad rapper
But at least, I'm not as tacky as the mad hatter
At his tea party, crunching on a jam platter
And a teacup
Now listen to the glass shatter
How about Tweedledum
Do I even need a pun
A synonym for silliness
Relieving all your tedium with Tweedledee
Have you ever met a match running out of time
Haven't even got the Cheshire Cat
A treasure stash of characters and fun jewels
No dumb rules, no humdrum school
No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull
Wonderland's munching on Matilda like lunchables
Alice in Wonderland, ladies and gentlemen
Ah, number one on top
Greatest of all time
Yeah, let's go, ooh
So look, raps aside. I like the book Matilda. It's funny, easy to read, and has one really memorable character. But Alice in Wonderland and all of its incredible characters are in another league. Why? Let's spill the tea.
First, Alice in Wonderland is truly old school. It was written more than 150 years ago, in 1865, when Abraham Lincoln was president and the height of fashion was wearing big skirts over literal steel cages. Back then, there weren't many books for kids, and the ones that did exist were often about lazy or disobedient kids being punished and learning their lesson.
Enter Alice's adventures in wonderland. Alice blew the door open for kids books that were pure fun. If you haven't read it, the story is truly wild. It's about a little girl named Alice who falls down a rabbit hole and enters a fantasy world called Wonderland. There, she meets all sorts of rude-talking animals and has to escape a bloodthirsty queen.
Reading Alice in Wonderland is like watching an ultra lush IMAX movie. Enchanted mushrooms, giant blue caterpillars, croquet mallet clubs made of live flamingos-- it's your wildest, weirdest dream scenarios brought to vivid life.
ALICE: Oh, tiger lily, I wish you could talk.
TIGER LILY: Well, of course, I can talk, when there's anybody worth talking to.
ALICE: And can all the flowers talk?
TIGER LILY: Oh, the daisies are the worst of all. It's enough to make one wither the way they go on.
JUN SEKIYA: That's right. Alice has a conversation with a literal flower. Seriously, there are so many strange and magical attractions packed in this story, reading it is like going to a theme park. Which makes sense because Alice in Wonderland was one of the biggest inspirations for Walt Disney himself.
When Walt was a young cartoonist, just starting out, he moved to Los Angeles with only a single small suitcase. Inside was a short cartoon he'd made inspired by, you guessed it, Alice in Wonderland. But Alice in Wonderland has inspired even more.
From bands like the Beatles to movies like The Matrix, to singers like Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift, Alice has influenced generations of art, music, and movies. And that's because you can interpret the story however you want.
Ask 100 people what the story means, and you'll get 100 different answers. Is it a story about how kids should grow up or about how adults should grow down and be less serious? Is it an allegory about food, about the queen of England, about language and logic? Yes to all of the above. You, the reader, get to choose your own adventure.
Matilda is great. But in the end, it's a pretty narrow story about the good guys beating the bad ones, which doesn't leave much room for interpretation. And for that, you've got to give the edge to wonderland, to the queen you love to hate, to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, to mad silly fun and Cheshire Cat grins. The tea has been spilt and there's no way to put it back in the pot. No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull. Wonderland's munching on Matilda like lunchables.
[APPLAUSE]
MOLLY BLOOM: A jam-packed and rap-packed argument there for Alice in Wonderland. Incredible. Elsa, what stood out to you about Jun's declaration of greatness?
ELSA: First of all, I loved the rap and how he used that to tell Alice's story. I loved how he described, in great detail, what wonderland looks like. And it was awesome being able to hear how the story inspires and continues to inspire so many people, especially like Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga. That was really nice to hear.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Adam, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why thinking of Alice fills you with malice. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
ADAM GIDWITZ: First of all, malice, Alice does not fill me with malice. I love that book. But who is Alice? She's a character who isn't really fleshed out at all. We don't really know much about her emotionally, and it's, therefore, really hard to connect with her. The book ends up feeling a little bit more like a series of random puzzles and weird things. But if the whole thing were wrapped by Jun, maybe I would change my vote to Alice. That's definitely possible.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Jun, do you have anything you'd like to say in response?
JUN SEKIYA: Yeah, I think that's part of its strength because it allows the reader to put themselves into Alice's shoes and experience wonderland for themselves. So I don't think that's a weakness at all, actually.
MOLLY BLOOM: Elsa, you've heard the arguments, and it's time to award some points. Please give 1 point to the declaration of greatness you liked best and 1 point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Jun and Adam, how are you two feeling so far?
ADAM GIDWITZ: I was feeling great until Jun started to rap. I was like, I have this in the bag. And then the rapping started, and I was like, forget it.
JUN SEKIYA: I'm a little nervous. I'm not going to lie, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's time for a quick break. Devour a chapter of your latest book and get ready for a tea party.
ELSA: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
CREW: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe inspiring argumentation.
TODD DOUGLAS: Howdy ho, debater rinos. I'm Todd Douglas, and I'm here with the ranch to my celery sticks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Taylor Lincoln. And would you believe it, we just caught another logical fallacy?
TODD DOUGLAS: Logical fallacies are debate no-nos that make your argument so, so much weaker.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: We just saw someone use the false dichotomy fallacy. That's when a person makes it seem like there are only two sides to an argument, even though there are many different sides. Check it out.
JENNY: Hey, JoJo, do you want an apple? They're delicious.
JOJO: No thanks. I'm good.
JENNY: What? You just hate apples?
JOJO: That's not what I said.
JENNY: Well, either you like them or you don't. If you don't want this apple, well, you must really not like apples.
JOJO: Not true, Jenny. I just had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and I'm still full.
JENNY: Just admit you hate apples, JoJo.
JOJO: Exsqueeze me. That's a false dichotomy. Just because I don't want an apple right now doesn't necessarily mean I don't like them. I'm just too full. And there could be lots of other reasons I don't want an apple. Maybe I just brushed my teeth, or I only like Granny Smiths, or maybe I'm allergic.
JENNY: Oh, whoopsie-daisy. My bad. Sorry for getting ahead of myself. This should be a fallacy-free friendship.
JOJO: No worries. Save me an apple for later.
JENNY: You got it.
TODD DOUGLAS: JoJo stopped that false dichotomy fallacy in its tracks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Right. Things are rarely black and white. There are usually lots of different sides to a story or an argument.
TODD DOUGLAS: And in this case, many different sides to a snack. Speaking of, I've got a hankering for a Honeycrisp.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh! Make that two tickets to Crunch Town. We'll catch you next time on State of Debate.
CREW: Brains On! universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[PLANE BOOM]
ALIEN: It's alien laundry day. While I wash my nose mufflers and tummy togas, I'll listen to a new podcast. hee, hee, hee! How about Forever Ago, my favorite history podcast?
CHILD: Whoa, I was not expecting that to work or for it to sound this good.
WOMAN: That's the DJ Dolo Technique.
[AIR HORNS BLOW]
CREW: DJ Dolo!
WOMAN: When I say pizza, you say bagel. Pizza.
CHILD: Bage--
ALIEN: Zorp, signal down. Ugh! Stay right there, Tummy Togas. Must find Forever Ago now.
MAN: Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts.
CREW: Smash Boom Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
ELSA: And I'm your judge, Elsa.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this playful debate idea from Rory.
RORY: My name is Rory, and I'm from Pella, Iowa. My debate idea is slinkys versus slap bracelets.
ELSA: Both bouncy, delightful, and nostalgic as heck.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Rory think should win.
ELSA: And now, it's back to our debate, Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
CREW: Micro-Round.
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro-Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Adam and Jun, the prompt was "baddie reputation." In this challenge, a villain from each side needs to clear their reputation.
They want to set the record straight about how they're really not that bad. Will they redeem themselves? It's up to Elsa to decide. Adam went first last time. So, Jun, you're up. Do your best to clear the reputation of a baddie from Alice in Wonderland.
[GAVEL BANGS]
JUDGE: Order. Order in the court. We will now hear the arguments of the defendant.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Thank you, good sir. I, the Queen of Hearts, rightful sovereign of Wonderland, am accused of being a tyrant. While it's true I have a flair for ruthless rhetoric, I am, above all, a community builder.
Think of how disconnected we all live from each other-- the caterpillar on its mushroom, the Cheshire Cat in its tree, the Mad Hatter at his sad little tea party in the woods. Oh, hoo, hoo, hoo! Where would we be without my croquet games to bring us together? Drifting apart, wrapped up in our own selfish little lives.
JUDGE: And what do you say to the accusation that you randomly sentence people to death?
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Oh, good sir. I'd like to point to your use of the word in a sentence, as there is a great difference between a death sentence and a death doing. One is a sentence and, therefore, just said, while the other is an action and, therefore, done. And if you consult the record, you will see that I have never done any death.
JUDGE: That can't be right. [PAGES RUSTLING] By Jove, her rulings are never enforced.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Action, that is, the lack of it, speaks louder than words.
JUDGE: I'm afraid the defendant is right. The Queen of Hearts is innocent.
QUEEN OF HEARTS: Innocent? Are you calling me naive?
JUDGE: Order. Order in the court!
QUEEN OF HEARTS: You dare command the queen? Off with your head.
MOLLY BLOOM: [laughs] Wow, a shocking courtroom twist there. Adam, it is your turn. Let's hear from a baddie in the world of Matilda.
HARRY WORMWOOD: Well, it's going to be another great day of swindling suckers out of their money. [CLEARS THROAT] I mean, selling quality used cars for fair prices. [LAUGHS] Oh, Harry Wormwood, you're cleverer than the whole lot of them put together, aren't you? You handsome devil. Where's that hair oil? Ah, here it is.
Work it in with your fingertips, old boy. Make those black locks shine. Yes, you're handsome and clever and rich, and a very good father, too. So why won't that nasty little pimple, Matilda, do as you say? Blast it. You tear up one of her library books, and she acts like you committed a crime. You're just looking out for what's best for her. No one reads anymore. Watch more telly. That's what I say.
And she tried to shame you for playing a few harmless tricks on your customers. How naive can she be? Everyone cheats. And if they don't, they're getting cheated. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and you're the biggest, toughest, handsomest dog out there, old boy. Ugh, and all the thinking Matilda does. Who wants a kid who thinks?
You know what they say about people who think too much? They've got their heads up their aaa! What's wrong with my hair? Oh, my beautiful hair! It's platinum blonde. Matilda. Matilda is behind this you bet your bottom dollar. Matilda! Matilda!
MATILDA: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Poor Mr. Wormwood can't get through his daily ablutions without pranks. Poor guy. Elsa, what did you like about Adam and Jun's micro-rounds?
ELSA: For Jun's, I loved how the Queen acted and how she claimed that she brought people together. And then for Adam's I loved how Mr. Wormwood was just talking to himself and kind of hyping himself up in a way.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah.
ELSA: I thought that was pretty funny.
MOLLY BLOOM: Doing his-- what do they call it?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Like his morning, or his affirmations.
MOLLY BLOOM: Affirmations.
ELSA: Yes, affirmation.
MOLLY BLOOM: Doing his daily affirmations into the mirror. Please award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Fantastic. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's sneak attack is called by any other name.
Let's say your story didn't have a name, or that Matilda and Alice in Wonderland were not options for titles. We want you to come up with three alternative titles for your side. For example, if your challenge was for the movie Frozen, your alternative title might be Snow Sisters or Winter's Chilling Embrace, or Don't Get Engaged to a Sketchy Prince You Met at a Party. Does all of this make sense?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yes.
JUN SEKIYA: Yep.
MOLLY BLOOM: So we're going to start with Adam, and we will take turns going back and forth. So Adam, let's hear your first alternate title for Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Matilda Wormwood's Infinite Guide to the Best Pranks of All Time.
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Jun, it is your turn. Let's hear your first alternate title for Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Super Color Wonder World.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice. Love it. Adam, your second alternative title, please.
ADAM GIDWITZ: The Tragedy of the Trunchbull.
MOLLY BLOOM: Another-- is that a wicked-type tale where we are rehabbing?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah, we get her side of it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Jun, your turn again. Let's hear your second alternative title for Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Alice and the Queen Who Set Off With Her Head.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Love it. Very descriptive. Adam, let's hear your final title for Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Power Eyeballs. That's a number one bestseller right there. Come on, number one.
MOLLY BLOOM: How could you not want to pick up that book? Jun, what is your last alternative title for Alice in Wonderland?
JUN SEKIYA: Annoying Talking Animals-- A Tour.
MOLLY BLOOM: Did you say Annoying Talking Animals Tour?
JUN SEKIYA: Yeah, a colon, "A Tour."
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Again, another book that I would not be able to pass up. Elsa, please think about these excellent alternative titles and think about which side impressed you the most. And please award your fourth point.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Have you made your decision?
ELSA: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. Then it's time for our final round, The Final Six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Jun, let's hear your six words for making people see the wonder of Alice in Wonderland.
JUN SEKIYA: Wonder-filled seed of million worlds.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. Adam, it's your turn. Please give us six words on the majesty of Matilda.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Girl genius, fighting stupidity and cruelty.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very nice. Elsa, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
ELSA: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: The drum roll, please. And the winner is--
[DRUM ROLL]
ELSA: Matilda!
JUN SEKIYA: No!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Woo hoo!
JUN SEKIYA: No!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Thank you, Elsa.
MOLLY BLOOM: What was the moment that really decided it? What was your favorite part?
ELSA: Ooh, I think the Micro-Round. That was really it for me. I thought it was really funny.
ADAM GIDWITZ: It was all about hearing Mr. Wormwood brush his teeth.
ELSA: Yes. Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah. The depiction of that, whoever-- the fact that you guys actually found Mr. Wormwood and got him to brush his teeth into a mic was really unbelievable. He nailed it.
MOLLY BLOOM: He didn't have a lot going on, so he helped us out.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jun is not only an incredible actor, but also an incredible researcher. I thought I knew about Alice in Wonderland. And I learned a lot more from his Declaration of Greatness. So it's an amazing job.
JUN SEKIYA: Thank you. So Adam, going in, I was already so afraid because I listened to his previous Smash Boom Best debates. And he did not disappoint. He came with so many witty angles on what made Matilda so great. And I could tell how much he loved the book. It came through in his Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, excellent work to both of you. That is it for today's debate battle. Elsa crowned Matilda the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
ELSA: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Derek Ramirez and Gary O'Keefe with sound design by--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: --with fact-checking by Rebecca Rand. And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
RABECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
- And.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joann Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Elsa for inspiring me from the very beginning with her love of Matilda.
ELSA: Oh, thank you.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's so nice. And how about you, Jun? Any special shout outs?
JUN SEKIYA: I'm going to shout out my mom, my sister, and my dad, just because I-- not often on radio. And then Elsa for having such a crazy life story with playing both of those characters-- probably the best person on the planet to judge this debate. And then So Min, my mentor who got me on. I tried to avenge you, So Min and beat Adam, but I could not cut the mustard in the end. And I'm sorry.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Ha, ha, ha!
MOLLY BLOOM: And how about you, Elsa? Any special thanks or shout outs?
ELSA: Well, both of you. You both did an amazing job. My parents, and all my friends at school.
MOLLY BLOOM: Before we go, let's check in and see who Rory thinks should win the slinkys versus slap bracelets debate.
RORY: I think slinkys would win because they have more than one purpose, and they are more fun to play with.
ELSA: Smash Boom Best is a nonprofit public radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And while you're at it, join Smarty Pass for bonus episodes and ad free versions of all four shows in the Brains On! Universe.
We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week, hamsters versus goldfish.
ELSA: Bye.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Keep reading.
JUN SEKIYA: Bye, guys.
MOLLY BLOOM: Ta-ta.
[THEME SONG]
(SINGING) You have the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you have the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
ADAM GIDWITZ: Nailed it. No notes.
JUN SEKIYA: It's the cherry on top.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nailed it.
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.
