May 22, 2025
Gandalf vs. Snape
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RSSToday’s debate is a magical matchup between two wizards - one lives on Middle Earth, the other at Hogwarts. One’s got a pointy hat, the other’s got a pointy attitude. It’s Gandalf vs. Snape! Comedy writer and LEGO Master Sam Suksiri will wield the staff for Team Gandalf and Brains On Editor Shahla Farzan will take up her wand for Team Snape. Who will be crowned the Smash Boom Best? Vote below for the team YOU think won!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $5/month (or $45/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
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Audio Transcript
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MOLLY BLOOM: A quick note before this episode, there are major spoilers ahead for both Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings. So if you haven't finished either series, beware. Now on with the show.
NARRATOR: From the brains behind Brains On!, it's Smash Boom Best.
MAY: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a magical match-up between two wizards. One lives on Middle-earth, the other at Hogwarts. One's got a pointy hat, the other's got a pointy attitude. It's Gandalf versus Snape.
We've got comedy writer and a LEGO master Sam Suksiri here to wield the staff for Team Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: I have not passed through fire and death to brandy crooked words without winning. Hi.
MOLLY BLOOM: And the Brains On! editor Shahla Farzan is ready to take up her wand for Team Snape.
SHAHLA FARZAN: I solemnly swear that I'm about to blow your mind with Snape facts.
MOLLY BLOOM: And here to judge it all is May from a Northfield, Minnesota. May is a captain of her swim team, loves reading and playing the guitar, and has a deep knowledge of both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings universes. Hi, May.
MAY: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY BLOOM: So May, what are your favorite songs to play on the guitar?
MAY: Well, I love rock music, so I like to play a lot of Beatles music and things of that sort.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're wearing a Green Day shirt. Do you like to play Green Day or just listen to Green Day?
MAY: I love to play Green Day as well. It's very different but very fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: So last time you were here, we talked a lot about your passion for Lord of the Rings. So I'm wondering, how do you feel about Harry Potter?
MAY: Well, I love Harry Potter as well. I think that both universes are very delightful. Harry Potter was my first introduction to fantasy, so it certainly holds a special place in my heart for that reason. But that's not to say that I don't have a love of The Lord of the Rings. I'm completely obsessed with that series, although it did come later.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you have any advice for our debaters today? You've judged a bunch of times, so I'm curious what you would tell them.
MAY: There's lots of ways to win one of the rounds. You can be funny or share something really interesting or something that I hadn't thought of before. So yeah, there's lots of ways to go about doing this.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm'kay. Will May side with Sam or Shahla? We just don't know until we know. But first--
MAY: Smash Boom Best is a non-profit public radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right, May, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show.
MAY: You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, or buy our merch--
MOLLY BLOOM: --like a Smash Boom Best hoodie, pencil pouch, or a keychain.
MAY: Head to smashboom.org to show your support. And thank.
MOLLY BLOOM: Now, on to the rules. Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final 6. After each round, our judge, May, will award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. OK, Sam, Shahla, and May, are you ready?
SAM SUKSIRI: Ready.
SHAHLA FARZAN: So ready.
MAY: I'm ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: Great, then it's time for the Declaration of Greatness.
In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin and Sam, you're up first. Tell us why he should really be called Gandalf the Great.
SAM SUKSIRI: Let's play everyone's favorite game show--
AUDIENCE: Meet Your Mentor.
SAM SUKSIRI: The only game show that matches young heroes with the perfect guide for their quest. Today, we're looking for a mentor for me. Let's meet our contestants. Mentor number 1 is a 38-year-old wizard and a professor of potions who enjoys holding grudges and lurking in dungeons.
SNAPE: So happy to be here.
SAM SUKSIRI: Mentor number 2 is also a wizard. He's thousands of years old and likes taking long walks to destroy evil jewelry.
GANDALF: That's true. Greetings to you.
SAM SUKSIRI: Let's get started. Mentor number 1, what kind of magical tools or equipment do you have?
SNAPE: I have my wand and my charming personality.
SAM SUKSIRI: OK. Mentor number 2?
GANDALF: I have my sword, Glamdring, forged by the elves and wielded by Turgon, the Elven King of Gondolin. I also have my faithful steed, Shadowfax, Prince of Horses, and Narya, the Ring of Fire, one of the three uncorrupted Elven Rings of Power.
SAM SUKSIRI: Mentor number 2, what did you used to do?
GANDALF: Before I was a wizard, I was a Maiar, one of the ancient spirits who helped Ilúvatar create the world.
SAM SUKSIRI: Wow, amazing. Mentor number 1, what did you used to do?
SNAPE: Oh, well, I was a part of a group led by an evil wizard that, uh, tried to take over the world.
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah, I think I've heard enough. I choose mentor number 2! Mentor number 2, what is your name?
GANDALF: I am called Mithrandir by the elves, Tharkun by the dwarves. But you can call me Gandalf.
[APPLAUSE]
SAM SUKSIRI: If you've read The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, you know Gandalf is an immensely powerful wizard. He fought armies of goblins, orcs, and all manner of evil creatures. But Gandalf isn't just super powerful, he's also really chill.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
When he's not saving the world, Gandalf loves to have fun. He is renowned among the hobbits for his amazing fireworks.
HOBBITS: Yeah, fireworks. Fireworks. Ooh, firework. Fireworks. Fireworks. Fireworks.
[WHISTLING]
Yay.
SAM SUKSIRI: He loves to eat and drink with friends and kick back to blow magical smoke rings from his pipe. He knows that these things are important because he's one of the wisest beings in Middle-earth. There's a line from The Hobbit where Thorin, the dwarf king, driven mad by his lust for gold and power, is mortally injured in battle and he finally realizes the error of his ways and says--
THORIN: [COUGHS] If more of us valued food and cheer and song above [COUGHS] hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
SAM SUKSIRI: That's literally how Gandalf lives. Gandalf so out powers Snape, it's not even fair to compare them as wizards. So let's compare what kind of literary characters they are.
Literary characters are things like the protagonist and the hero of the story or the antagonist, the bad guy. Gandalf is what's called a mentor, like Yoda, who teaches Skywalker in Star Wars.
YODA: Do or do not, there is no try.
SAM SUKSIRI: The mentor is a critical role in stories who will often call the hero to begin an adventure, as Gandalf did when he called Bilbo to join a questing party of dwarves.
GANDALF: I'm looking for someone to share in an adventure.
SAM SUKSIRI: And a mentor offers wisdom when the hero is struggling.
FRODO: I wish none of this had happened.
GANDALF: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. There are forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.
SAM SUKSIRI: It takes a great mentor like Gandalf to inspire the humble hobbits and inspire us, the readers, to believe in themselves. And that's a greater power than any magical spell or potion. Gandalf is an epic wizard, mentor, and party beast. I don't think Snape passes the test to be the Smash Boom Best. What do you think, Gandalf?
GANDALF: You shall not pass!
MOLLY BLOOM: Incredible, glad Gandalf got the last word in that declaration. May, what stood out to you about Sam's argument?
MAY: I loved that. First of all, I loved your many references to the magical items that Gandalf possesses. I caught Narya, the Ring of Fire, Glamdring, all of his weapons. I love your references, even to some of his past. You sum that up very nicely. It was almost an entire chapter of The Silmarillion that you said in one sentence beautifully, about him being a Maiar and things like the city of Gondolin and everything.
And then I also liked how you talked about his role as a mentor-- that's very important-- and the things that he does in his free time. He also used some of the most classic Gandalf quotes in a very effective way.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very nice. OK. Shahla, it is time for your rebuttal. You have 30 seconds to tell us why Gandalf puts the "mid" in Middle-earth. Your time starts now.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK. First of all, we're talking about mentoring. I want to know what kind of mentoring Gandalf actually does for Frodo. He gives him this evil ring. He sends him on a seemingly impossible mission that he's pretty sure is going to kill him. He's like, meh, he's probably not going to come back. That doesn't sound like mentoring to me.
Also, Gandalf isn't even technically human. He's like this demigod angel, who was sung to life. Snape is human, which means he's interesting and sometimes he makes mistakes. Also, who'd want to hang out with a perfect demigod angel anyway? Personally-- I have other thoughts I will share later.
SAM SUKSIRI: OK. Gandalf mentored Frodo. He didn't send him on his quest. Frodo famously says, I will take the ring to Mordor, though I know not the way. He volunteers. You know who doesn't volunteer to save all of wizarding world? Harry Potter is just like, I guess I gotta do it, I don't know. Does Harry ever get a chance to say, OK, I'll be the chosen one. He's just used. Used! Poor child.
Also, Frodo is like 42 and Harry Potter is, what, 12 when he starts. So even if he did choose, why are you putting this much weight on a child?
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. There is so much more to say. Shahla, please tell us why reading about Snape is such a good escape.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Have you ever read a book that's so original, so immersive, that it feels like you've fallen into a totally different world? That's how I felt the first time I read Harry Potter.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I was 10 years old and the first book had just come out. I was absolutely glued to it, reading along as Harry escapes his lonely life living in the cupboard under the stairs, and discovers a magical world hidden in plain sight. His first wand, his first time riding a broom, first taste of earwax-flavored jelly beans-- it felt like I was there experiencing it with him.
I read it as fast as I could in the back seat, under the covers at bedtime, even in the bathtub-- not my best idea. The point is, I had and still have a deep love for these books. And as a Harry Potter mega fan, I thought I had all the characters figured out, including the world's grumpiest Potions Master, Professor Severus Snape.
But when I read the last book and found out Snape had been one of the good guys, I was stunned. Since then, I've come to love this complicated and mysterious character. Sure, he does a lot of brooding and skulking around. But he's also one of the most underrated heroes of all time.
BLOBBY: Oh, good point.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Dobby the House Elf?
BLOBBY: Actually, it's Blobby the House Elf, Dobby's second cousin.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK.
BLOBBY: Blobby had to come when he heard Shahla Farzan was discussing Professor Snape. He's a legend.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Totally. Snape's a great example of a redemption arc. That's when a bad guy grows and changes to be good. When he was young, Snape thought wizards were superior to non-magical people. He became a powerful dark wizard. He even joined forces with the evil Voldemort.
But then plot twist, Voldemort kills the person Snape loves most and he realizes how wrong he'd been. He takes his grief and anger and he funnels it into sabotaging Voldemort.
BLOBBY: It's like Bobby always says, keep your friends close and your "former dark lord mentor turned mortal enemy" even closer.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Exactly. Gandalf, on the other hand, is basically perfect from start to finish, which is, let's face it, kind of boring.
BLOBBY: Gandalf? More like Blandalf, am I right? [LAUGHS]
SHAHLA FARZAN: When you think about it, this makes Snape the ultimate double agent. For years, he works undercover, pretending to help Lord Voldemort. And it's super risky. Remember, Voldemort is the most dangerous dark wizard of all time. And he can literally read minds, so Snape has to be extra cunning.
And he does such a great job that he fools everyone into thinking he's working for Voldemort when he's actually feeding information to Dumbledore the entire time.
Here's the thing about Snape that people sometimes forget. He low-key saved the world by keeping Harry safe.
BLOBBY: Professor Snape protected Harry Potter when he was being attacked by a werewolf. And he kept Harry Potter from being thrown off his broom during his first Quidditch match.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Yeah. Just imagine if Snape hadn't been there to save Harry during that match.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
COMMENTATOR: Harry zipping through the air, hunting for the golden snitch. Look at him go.
HAGRID: Looks like someone's cursed Harry's broom. That's been tampered with.
COMMENTATOR: Oh, no! Harry's falling off his broom. He's headed straight for the ground. He's--
SHAHLA FARZAN: It'd be a pretty short book series, is all I'm saying. And Snape does all of this behind the scenes without expecting any attention. In fact, it isn't until after he's gone that we realize everything he did.
Gandalf, on the other hand, loves attention. Think about it. Whenever there's an emergency, he rides in on his horse, Shadowfax, with his robes billowing and makes a big entrance.
[HORSE NEIGHING]
BLOBBY: And they say Professor Snape is the dramatic one.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Snape isn't your typical hero. He's complicated and cranky. But when you look past the superficial stuff, it's easy to see why Harry calls Snape the bravest man he's ever known and even names his son after him, because in the end, Snape sacrifices everything-- his reputation, his happiness, even his life-- to help save the world.
BLOBBY: That's why Blobby knitted these for Shahla Farzan and Blobby.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Matching sweaters that say I heart Snape? Thanks, Blobby. Mm, I couldn't have said it better myself.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, Shahla, that sweater looks so good on you.
SHAHLA FARZAN: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow, Blobby is very talented. May, what stood out to you about Shahla's Declaration of Greatness?
MAY: I liked how you talked about Snape as a character and how he changed throughout the series and the mystery the entire time of us not knowing whose side he was really on. I also thought that Blobby was an excellent commentator.
[LAUGHTER]
So that was a very interesting take on the professor.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm-hmm. OK. Sam, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why we should cast a stupefy spell on Snape. You've got 30 seconds, and go.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, interesting you bring up the stupefy spell, which Harry and Hermione and Ron used on Neville in book one. And then, very wisely, Dumbledore says, there's many kinds of bravery. But the bravery to stand up to your friends is one of the most hardest to do. And that's what Neville exemplifies.
And Harry doesn't name his child after Neville? He names after Snape? Sure, Snape is very brave. But he has a lot of issues he needed to deal with in a healthy manner, not through taking it out on the child of the girl he was obsessed with!
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
SAM SUKSIRI: And your problem with Gandalf is that he's perfect and always saves the day?
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
SHAHLA FARZAN: Part of the reason why Snape is a crabby dude is that he was intensely bullied as a kid. And I agree, he should probably deal with that in a healthier way. He kind of directs his anger and hurt out in the world for a while because he's working through a lot of trauma, because, again, he's human.
SAM SUKSIRI: Is he working through it?
SHAHLA FARZAN: He's not a demigod angel who was sung into existence. We can't all be perfect like Gandalf. I'm so sorry. I want to be perfect like him. I want his hair and his amazing beard, too. But we can't have everything we want.
SAM SUKSIRI: He's got a great beard.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award some points. Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument.
Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
[BELL DINGING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Shahla and Sam, how are you two feeling so far?
SAM SUKSIRI: Hyped.
[LAUGHTER]
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, I'm over here shouting wingardium leviosa because I'm like floating on the ceiling with excitement.
SAM SUKSIRI: I'm wearing a robe and I'm realizing that it's a bit hot.
[LAUGHTER]
It's part of The Hobbit costume but, boy, hot under the collar.
MOLLY BLOOM: Good for trekking far, not good in a studio.
[LAUGHTER]
All right. It is time for a quick break. Fluff up your beard and give your potion a stir.
MAY: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
ANNOUNCER: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TODD DOUGLAS: I'm Todd Dingley Dangly Douglas, and I'm here with--
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Taylor Loosey Goosey Lincoln.
TODD DOUGLAS: How are you today, pal?
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Oh, not bad. We're having some toasty summer weather. But I'm ready to beat the heat. I've got to blow-up jumbo-sized kiddie pool, an economy sized tub of sunscreen, and a freezer full of ice pops. You should come over.
TODD DOUGLAS: Oh, that sounds so nice. Count me in. But I have to do some chores first, then I will be there with my pineapple print swim trunks, and a cooler of snacks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: OMG, that reminds me, Todd. I have to show you this video I saw last night. It's so full of fallacies. You gotta falla-see-it to believe it.
TODD DOUGLAS: Hey, nice one. Fallacies are holes in arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. Plus, they make it easier to defeat your side in a debate.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: This one is called a false equivalency. That's when you argue two things are totally the same, but they really only have one thing in common. Here's the tape.
[WHIRRING]
MOTHER: Hey, kiddo. You really need to clean your room. It's like an overgrown jungle in here. I can't even walk across the floor.
KID: Oh, sweet. I'm a jungle guy now like Tarzan. Gotta get some vines so I can swing from my desk to the bed. Problem solved.
MOTHER: I meant you should pick up your laundry and all of these toys from the floor.
KID: Tarzan never had to clean his room. If my room was a jungle like where Tarzan lives, then I shouldn't have to clean it either. We should leave the environment as it is.
MOTHER: That's very eco-minded of you, sweetie. But I need to vacuum. You can start by putting your books back on the shelf where they belong.
KID: But Mom, you said it was a jungle in here. What if the monkeys and jaguars want something to read?
MOTHER: I'm not sure they can read. And while you might be my silly little monkey, I don't think there are any jaguars in the room, dear.
KID: But there could be because it's a jungle.
MOTHER: [SIGHS]
[BUZZING]
TODD DOUGLAS: Ha! That's good entertainment, Tay, but not a good argument. That kid got stuck on a false equivalency fallacy.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: He sure did. He was trying to argue that his room was just like a jungle because both are a bit on the wild side. But that's only one thing they have in common.
TODD DOUGLAS: A jungle and a messy room might both be difficult to walk through, but the similarities end there.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And I'd never do any vacuuming in a jungle. You know what they say.
TODD DOUGLAS: What do they say?
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Nature can't stand the vacuum.
TODD DOUGLAS: Har-har. OK. I'm going to go do my cleaning, but I'll come over later for pool time. Save me some popsicles.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And we'll be back soon with more--
BOTH: State of Debate.
SPEAKER 1: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
ALIEN: [PANTING] It's Alien Exercise Hour. Hi-ya! Hoo-ha! While I stretch my snootles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZING]
I'm going to try Forever Ago, the best history podcast ever.
SPEAKER 2: To understand why anyone would think a TV show could change the world, we need to go way back--
[RECORD SCRATCHING]
--to America in the 1960s.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SPEAKER 3: Rock and roll was pretty new.
SPEAKER 2: Ford released the iconic Mustang muscle--
[BUZZING]
ALIEN: Zorrp! Come back here, podcast!
[MECHANICAL BEEPING]
Must listen to Forever Ago now!
SPEAKER 1: Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SPEAKER 3: Best.
SPEAKER 4: Boom.
SPEAKER 5: Smash. Smash.
SPEAKER 4: Boom.
SPEAKER 3: Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
MAY: And I'm your judge, May.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this practical debate idea from Ria.
RIA: I'm Ria from Maryland. And my debate idea is chores versus homework.
MAY: Too fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Ria thinks should win.
MAY: And now it's back to our debate, Gandalf versus Snape.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round two, the--
[ROBOTIC BLOB]
ROBOTIC VOICE: Micro Round.
[DING]
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Sam and Shahla, the prompt was-- acceptance speech. We asked you to pretend that your side is accepting an award and to write an acceptance speech for that award.
Sam went first last time. So Shahla, you're up. Give us your acceptance speech for Team Snape.
DUMBLEDORE: Students, quiet down, quiet down. Could someone please shoo the owls out of the back window?
[CREAKING SHUT]
Thank you. It's time for our Hogwarts Superlative Awards, decided by you, our students. Our first award is for Most Authentic Student. And the award goes to Hogwarts seventh year student Severus Snape.
[CROWD GASPING]
SNAPE: Thank you, Dumbledore. This award is most unexpected. I can't pretend to know what it means to be the most authentic student. Is it because I refuse to chit chat about the weather or the latest Quidditch scores? Bah! Small talk, who needs it? I much prefer to discuss deeper subjects like the latest innovations in potions brewing and the ethics of mind reading.
Or perhaps you voted for me as most authentic because you never have to guess whether I'm interested in what you're talking about. Chances are, I'm not. But look on the bright side, I'll always be honest with you. If you come to me and ask why you didn't pass your History of Magic exam, I'll say it's because you didn't study. Period, the end.
Anyway, back to this award. Please take it back. I don't do awards. Thank you.
DUMBLEDORE: [LAUGHS] So authentic, 10 points for Severus.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow, boss move, rejecting the award. OK, Sam, it is your turn. Let's hear your acceptance speech for Team Gandalf.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JACOB MARLEY: Oh, welcome back, everyone, to the 86th Aca-deady-me Awards, the oddly grim award show that honors epic deaths of fictional characters. And I'm your host, Jacob Marley. And our next award is the highest honor for a fictional character. It's the Best Death that actually helps the story.
Our nominees are-- Gandalf the Gray, who single-handedly fought a Balrog, an ancient and powerful demon of fire named Durin's Bane, so that his friends could escape to save Middle-earth, and Severus Snape, who died from a snake bite. And the winner is Gandalf!
[CHEERING]
GANDALF: Wow, what an honor. [CLEARS THROAT] As I plunged into the depths pursuing that fiery beast and as we spent 10 days fighting from the depths of the Earth to the highest mountainside, where I finally vanquished my foe before succumbing to my many injuries and passed beyond the veil, all I could think about was, I hope my sacrifice helped my friends.
[CHEERING]
SNAPE: Wait, wait, wait. Gandalf, I'm going to let you finish. But I just have to say, I had one of the best deaths of all time. I got stuck in a bubble with Voldemort's pet snake, and it bit me.
GANDALF: Um, uh-huh?
SNAPE: Now, you see, Voldemort thought that by killing me, he would become the true master of the Elder Wand. But he made a mistake, so he didn't actually become the master of the Elder Wand.
GANDALF: Mm, so you were bitten by a snake in a bubble. And also, it was a mistake?
SNAPE: OK, you know what? I don't want the award anymore.
GANDALF: Come now, no hard feelings. Let's celebrate with some bubbly!
SNAPE: Ahh! Bubbles! Are there snakes in them?
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, incredible work. OK. May, what did you like about those two acceptance speeches?
MAY: I loved your ideas for both of their awards. They were both very fitting for the characters.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. And Snape rejected both of the awards, ultimately.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Interesting. He's just so humble. He's so humble. I just really want to emphasize that. Also, I'm so glad you brought up the Balrog because the Balrog is cool, right? But who hasn't taken down a giant fiery demon with horns and a fire whip? It's pretty common these days, honestly.
SAM SUKSIRI: It's very relatable, it's what makes him relatable.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award a point. But don't tell us who it's going to. Criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made up your mind?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
GROUP: Ha-ha, hoo-ha!
MOLLY BLOOM: Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round, where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called raid my fridge.
SAM SUKSIRI: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: We want you to tell us what's in your side's fridge. Is it stocked with snacks galore? Is there only spoiled milk, delicious leftovers? Tell us everything about what's in Gandalf, for you, Sam, and Snape's fridge for you, Shahla. And please do it in under one minute.
Debaters, are you ready for your Sneak Attack?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, yeah.
SAM SUKSIRI: I'm ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Sam, we're going to start with you. Let's hear all about Gandalf's goodies.
SAM SUKSIRI: Well, Gandalf does know a lot about what's in other people's larder. When he first goes and visit Bilbo, he's just like, bring out the tea cakes, the seed cakes. When he was at the Prancing Pony, he blessed the beer of the bar owner, whose name is Butterbur, which is very similar to Butterbeer. He put a magical spell to make his beer taste really good.
Gandalf would also have a lot of cream and berry and cheese because he's friends with Tom Bombadil, and that's the thing that Tom Bombadil likes to make for his wife, the lady of the forest. And I think Gandalf would also have a lot of Yakult because he knows the importance of staying regular and microbiotics.
[LAUGHTER]
And then for funsies, he would probably have a bunch of chocolates with a really good minty interior, sort of like a creme de mint but dark chocolate on the outside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely.
SAM SUKSIRI: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Love that, staying regular, staying fit.
SAM SUKSIRI: And then having a little fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah.
SAM SUKSIRI: Right.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right.
SAM SUKSIRI: The importance is balance.
MOLLY BLOOM: Now, Shahla, it's your turn. Tell us about any and all Snape snacks.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK. Something you probably don't know about Severus Snape is that he's a huge chocolate frog fan. So the chocolate frogs from the Harry Potter universe, they're those magical chocolate frogs that hop around. They look like real frogs, but you can actually eat them. He's really into those. So his fridge is probably like about 90% chocolate frogs.
[LAUGHTER]
Also, pumpkin pie because Severus Snape eats pumpkin pie all year round. So comes home at the end of a long day spent skulking around the castle, whipping his robes back and forth, and what does he do? He sits down. He cracks open that fridge. He gets a big pumpkin pie with a canned whipped cream and he kind of kkkkk all on the top.
Then he digs in. And so he's a really big sweets fan, which is relatable. It's another way that he's so relatable. And it means he has to go to the dentist a lot. So really, the fridge is chock-full of sweets, frogs, pie-- I mean, I would love to get in there, honestly.
MOLLY BLOOM: Me too. Just a fridge full of giant pumpkin pies and chocolate frogs?
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, wait, let me ask you a question, though. When Snape cracks open his fridge, is anybody eating with him?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, no. He's definitely eating alone.
SAM SUKSIRI: He's all alone. Gandalf is always throwing a party. He's going to the house next door and cracking open their fridge.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, he's setting off those fireworks that everybody loves so much that's terrorizing all the local flora and fauna?
SAM SUKSIRI: They're magic--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Terrorizing the plants.
SAM SUKSIRI: Wait, the flora--
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, man.
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award a point. Please think about which side impressed you the most with their stocked fridge and award your fourth point.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
--The Final Six.
In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. All right. Shahla, let's hear your six words for how super Snape is.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Fearless hidden hero, Snape saves humanity.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. OK. Sam, it's your turn. Give us six words on the glory of Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: Led Zeppelin loves Gandalf and rock.
[LAUGHTER]
Did you know that, May? Led Zeppelin, huge Lord of the Rings fan.
MAY: Good to know. Oh, yeah, you can catch Lord of the Rings references in half of their songs.
SAM SUKSIRI: How many songs did Led Zeppelin write about Harry Potter? I'm forgetting.
SHAHLA FARZAN: He wrote a whole album about Snape. It's a hidden album that not many people know about, actually.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. May, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, OK. Tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
MAY: I am.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drum roll, please. And the winner is--
MAY: Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, yeah!
MAY: I would like to say--
SAM SUKSIRI: My dear Bilbo.
MAY: --it was very close. It came down to a single point. And both sides did fantastic. But at the end of the day, the tally says it all. And Gandalf won.
SHAHLA FARZAN: I'm expecto patronum with shock right now, May, truly. But no, honestly, this was such a fun debate. Sam, you're so much fun to debate with. And I was really, really impressed with, just your deep knowledge of Lord of the Rings, which I also love.
And now I can say honestly, I'm also a Gandalf fan. I'm a fan of both. But you were just such a great opponent. And this was the most fun debate.
SAM SUKSIRI: This was a really fun debate. And I loved your way to make Snape, who-- all of his negative qualities in my mind, his isolation, his kind of meanness, you made those all into positives, which I just-- I commend you for turning what I would have thought was the hardest thing to do into your front runner argument.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, that is it for today's debate battle. May crowned Gandalf the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
MAY: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! And APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: --Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Josh Savageau and Brian Hartman, with sound design by--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: --Shahla Farzan--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: --Sanden Totten--
MOLLY BLOOM: --with fact checking by--
REBECCA RAND: --Rebecca Rand.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: --Rosie duPont--
RACHEL BREES: --Rachel Brees--
ANNA GOLDFIELD: --Anna Goldfield--
NICO WISLER: --Nico Gonzalez Wisler--
RUBY GUTHRIE: --Ruby Guthrie--
LAUREN HUMPERT: --Lauren Humpert--
JOSHUA RAY: --Joshua Ray--
MARC SANCHEZ: --Marc Sanchez--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: --Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman.
Sam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
SAM SUKSIRI: I'd like to say thanks to all the librarians I had growing up, because I also got introduced first to Harry Potter and then that led me to reading Lord of the Rings. And so thanks for the recommendations as a kid from my librarians.
And I'm not a librarian, but if you're out there and you like fantasy, I would highly recommend reading Legends and Lattes. It's like medieval fantasy, but also coffee and chocolate.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, I love a book wreck. Thank you so much. How about you, Shahla, any special shout-outs?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh my gosh, Sam, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was also going to thank my local librarians because they really introduced me to a love of reading. And it was just the most fun ever to enter some of these magical, fantastical worlds-- and especially my St. Louis Public Library here.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, I love public libraries. May, any special thanks or shout-outs?
MAY: Yes, thank you to my family, who fostered my love of reading and of fantasy, in particular. Thank you to JRR Tolkien for creating this amazing universe. And yes, this was a fantastic debate.
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Before we go, let's check in and see who Ria thinks should win the chores versus homework debate.
RIA: I think homework would win because you don't have to get up to do it and because it helps you more later in life so you can get a good job.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line.
And make sure to subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week-- goats versus boa constrictors. Bye-bye.
MAY: Good Bye.
SHAHLA FARZAN: See ya.
SAM SUKSIRI: Bye, read lots of books.
(SINGING) Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
You're the Smash Boom Best
You're the Smash Boom Best
MOLLY BLOOM: Who did that Snape voice? Was that you, Sam?
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh my god, that was so--
MOLLY BLOOM: That was a very good Snape impression.
SHAHLA FARZAN: --amazing.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
SAM SUKSIRI AS SNAPE: So happy to be here.
NARRATOR: From the brains behind Brains On!, it's Smash Boom Best.
MAY: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a magical match-up between two wizards. One lives on Middle-earth, the other at Hogwarts. One's got a pointy hat, the other's got a pointy attitude. It's Gandalf versus Snape.
We've got comedy writer and a LEGO master Sam Suksiri here to wield the staff for Team Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: I have not passed through fire and death to brandy crooked words without winning. Hi.
MOLLY BLOOM: And the Brains On! editor Shahla Farzan is ready to take up her wand for Team Snape.
SHAHLA FARZAN: I solemnly swear that I'm about to blow your mind with Snape facts.
MOLLY BLOOM: And here to judge it all is May from a Northfield, Minnesota. May is a captain of her swim team, loves reading and playing the guitar, and has a deep knowledge of both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings universes. Hi, May.
MAY: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY BLOOM: So May, what are your favorite songs to play on the guitar?
MAY: Well, I love rock music, so I like to play a lot of Beatles music and things of that sort.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're wearing a Green Day shirt. Do you like to play Green Day or just listen to Green Day?
MAY: I love to play Green Day as well. It's very different but very fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: So last time you were here, we talked a lot about your passion for Lord of the Rings. So I'm wondering, how do you feel about Harry Potter?
MAY: Well, I love Harry Potter as well. I think that both universes are very delightful. Harry Potter was my first introduction to fantasy, so it certainly holds a special place in my heart for that reason. But that's not to say that I don't have a love of The Lord of the Rings. I'm completely obsessed with that series, although it did come later.
MOLLY BLOOM: Do you have any advice for our debaters today? You've judged a bunch of times, so I'm curious what you would tell them.
MAY: There's lots of ways to win one of the rounds. You can be funny or share something really interesting or something that I hadn't thought of before. So yeah, there's lots of ways to go about doing this.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm'kay. Will May side with Sam or Shahla? We just don't know until we know. But first--
MAY: Smash Boom Best is a non-profit public radio program.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right, May, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show.
MAY: You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, or buy our merch--
MOLLY BLOOM: --like a Smash Boom Best hoodie, pencil pouch, or a keychain.
MAY: Head to smashboom.org to show your support. And thank.
MOLLY BLOOM: Now, on to the rules. Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final 6. After each round, our judge, May, will award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. OK, Sam, Shahla, and May, are you ready?
SAM SUKSIRI: Ready.
SHAHLA FARZAN: So ready.
MAY: I'm ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: Great, then it's time for the Declaration of Greatness.
In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin and Sam, you're up first. Tell us why he should really be called Gandalf the Great.
SAM SUKSIRI: Let's play everyone's favorite game show--
AUDIENCE: Meet Your Mentor.
SAM SUKSIRI: The only game show that matches young heroes with the perfect guide for their quest. Today, we're looking for a mentor for me. Let's meet our contestants. Mentor number 1 is a 38-year-old wizard and a professor of potions who enjoys holding grudges and lurking in dungeons.
SNAPE: So happy to be here.
SAM SUKSIRI: Mentor number 2 is also a wizard. He's thousands of years old and likes taking long walks to destroy evil jewelry.
GANDALF: That's true. Greetings to you.
SAM SUKSIRI: Let's get started. Mentor number 1, what kind of magical tools or equipment do you have?
SNAPE: I have my wand and my charming personality.
SAM SUKSIRI: OK. Mentor number 2?
GANDALF: I have my sword, Glamdring, forged by the elves and wielded by Turgon, the Elven King of Gondolin. I also have my faithful steed, Shadowfax, Prince of Horses, and Narya, the Ring of Fire, one of the three uncorrupted Elven Rings of Power.
SAM SUKSIRI: Mentor number 2, what did you used to do?
GANDALF: Before I was a wizard, I was a Maiar, one of the ancient spirits who helped Ilúvatar create the world.
SAM SUKSIRI: Wow, amazing. Mentor number 1, what did you used to do?
SNAPE: Oh, well, I was a part of a group led by an evil wizard that, uh, tried to take over the world.
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah, I think I've heard enough. I choose mentor number 2! Mentor number 2, what is your name?
GANDALF: I am called Mithrandir by the elves, Tharkun by the dwarves. But you can call me Gandalf.
[APPLAUSE]
SAM SUKSIRI: If you've read The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, you know Gandalf is an immensely powerful wizard. He fought armies of goblins, orcs, and all manner of evil creatures. But Gandalf isn't just super powerful, he's also really chill.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
When he's not saving the world, Gandalf loves to have fun. He is renowned among the hobbits for his amazing fireworks.
HOBBITS: Yeah, fireworks. Fireworks. Ooh, firework. Fireworks. Fireworks. Fireworks.
[WHISTLING]
Yay.
SAM SUKSIRI: He loves to eat and drink with friends and kick back to blow magical smoke rings from his pipe. He knows that these things are important because he's one of the wisest beings in Middle-earth. There's a line from The Hobbit where Thorin, the dwarf king, driven mad by his lust for gold and power, is mortally injured in battle and he finally realizes the error of his ways and says--
THORIN: [COUGHS] If more of us valued food and cheer and song above [COUGHS] hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
SAM SUKSIRI: That's literally how Gandalf lives. Gandalf so out powers Snape, it's not even fair to compare them as wizards. So let's compare what kind of literary characters they are.
Literary characters are things like the protagonist and the hero of the story or the antagonist, the bad guy. Gandalf is what's called a mentor, like Yoda, who teaches Skywalker in Star Wars.
YODA: Do or do not, there is no try.
SAM SUKSIRI: The mentor is a critical role in stories who will often call the hero to begin an adventure, as Gandalf did when he called Bilbo to join a questing party of dwarves.
GANDALF: I'm looking for someone to share in an adventure.
SAM SUKSIRI: And a mentor offers wisdom when the hero is struggling.
FRODO: I wish none of this had happened.
GANDALF: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. There are forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil.
SAM SUKSIRI: It takes a great mentor like Gandalf to inspire the humble hobbits and inspire us, the readers, to believe in themselves. And that's a greater power than any magical spell or potion. Gandalf is an epic wizard, mentor, and party beast. I don't think Snape passes the test to be the Smash Boom Best. What do you think, Gandalf?
GANDALF: You shall not pass!
MOLLY BLOOM: Incredible, glad Gandalf got the last word in that declaration. May, what stood out to you about Sam's argument?
MAY: I loved that. First of all, I loved your many references to the magical items that Gandalf possesses. I caught Narya, the Ring of Fire, Glamdring, all of his weapons. I love your references, even to some of his past. You sum that up very nicely. It was almost an entire chapter of The Silmarillion that you said in one sentence beautifully, about him being a Maiar and things like the city of Gondolin and everything.
And then I also liked how you talked about his role as a mentor-- that's very important-- and the things that he does in his free time. He also used some of the most classic Gandalf quotes in a very effective way.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very nice. OK. Shahla, it is time for your rebuttal. You have 30 seconds to tell us why Gandalf puts the "mid" in Middle-earth. Your time starts now.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK. First of all, we're talking about mentoring. I want to know what kind of mentoring Gandalf actually does for Frodo. He gives him this evil ring. He sends him on a seemingly impossible mission that he's pretty sure is going to kill him. He's like, meh, he's probably not going to come back. That doesn't sound like mentoring to me.
Also, Gandalf isn't even technically human. He's like this demigod angel, who was sung to life. Snape is human, which means he's interesting and sometimes he makes mistakes. Also, who'd want to hang out with a perfect demigod angel anyway? Personally-- I have other thoughts I will share later.
SAM SUKSIRI: OK. Gandalf mentored Frodo. He didn't send him on his quest. Frodo famously says, I will take the ring to Mordor, though I know not the way. He volunteers. You know who doesn't volunteer to save all of wizarding world? Harry Potter is just like, I guess I gotta do it, I don't know. Does Harry ever get a chance to say, OK, I'll be the chosen one. He's just used. Used! Poor child.
Also, Frodo is like 42 and Harry Potter is, what, 12 when he starts. So even if he did choose, why are you putting this much weight on a child?
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow. There is so much more to say. Shahla, please tell us why reading about Snape is such a good escape.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Have you ever read a book that's so original, so immersive, that it feels like you've fallen into a totally different world? That's how I felt the first time I read Harry Potter.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I was 10 years old and the first book had just come out. I was absolutely glued to it, reading along as Harry escapes his lonely life living in the cupboard under the stairs, and discovers a magical world hidden in plain sight. His first wand, his first time riding a broom, first taste of earwax-flavored jelly beans-- it felt like I was there experiencing it with him.
I read it as fast as I could in the back seat, under the covers at bedtime, even in the bathtub-- not my best idea. The point is, I had and still have a deep love for these books. And as a Harry Potter mega fan, I thought I had all the characters figured out, including the world's grumpiest Potions Master, Professor Severus Snape.
But when I read the last book and found out Snape had been one of the good guys, I was stunned. Since then, I've come to love this complicated and mysterious character. Sure, he does a lot of brooding and skulking around. But he's also one of the most underrated heroes of all time.
BLOBBY: Oh, good point.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Dobby the House Elf?
BLOBBY: Actually, it's Blobby the House Elf, Dobby's second cousin.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK.
BLOBBY: Blobby had to come when he heard Shahla Farzan was discussing Professor Snape. He's a legend.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Totally. Snape's a great example of a redemption arc. That's when a bad guy grows and changes to be good. When he was young, Snape thought wizards were superior to non-magical people. He became a powerful dark wizard. He even joined forces with the evil Voldemort.
But then plot twist, Voldemort kills the person Snape loves most and he realizes how wrong he'd been. He takes his grief and anger and he funnels it into sabotaging Voldemort.
BLOBBY: It's like Bobby always says, keep your friends close and your "former dark lord mentor turned mortal enemy" even closer.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Exactly. Gandalf, on the other hand, is basically perfect from start to finish, which is, let's face it, kind of boring.
BLOBBY: Gandalf? More like Blandalf, am I right? [LAUGHS]
SHAHLA FARZAN: When you think about it, this makes Snape the ultimate double agent. For years, he works undercover, pretending to help Lord Voldemort. And it's super risky. Remember, Voldemort is the most dangerous dark wizard of all time. And he can literally read minds, so Snape has to be extra cunning.
And he does such a great job that he fools everyone into thinking he's working for Voldemort when he's actually feeding information to Dumbledore the entire time.
Here's the thing about Snape that people sometimes forget. He low-key saved the world by keeping Harry safe.
BLOBBY: Professor Snape protected Harry Potter when he was being attacked by a werewolf. And he kept Harry Potter from being thrown off his broom during his first Quidditch match.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Yeah. Just imagine if Snape hadn't been there to save Harry during that match.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
COMMENTATOR: Harry zipping through the air, hunting for the golden snitch. Look at him go.
HAGRID: Looks like someone's cursed Harry's broom. That's been tampered with.
COMMENTATOR: Oh, no! Harry's falling off his broom. He's headed straight for the ground. He's--
SHAHLA FARZAN: It'd be a pretty short book series, is all I'm saying. And Snape does all of this behind the scenes without expecting any attention. In fact, it isn't until after he's gone that we realize everything he did.
Gandalf, on the other hand, loves attention. Think about it. Whenever there's an emergency, he rides in on his horse, Shadowfax, with his robes billowing and makes a big entrance.
[HORSE NEIGHING]
BLOBBY: And they say Professor Snape is the dramatic one.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Snape isn't your typical hero. He's complicated and cranky. But when you look past the superficial stuff, it's easy to see why Harry calls Snape the bravest man he's ever known and even names his son after him, because in the end, Snape sacrifices everything-- his reputation, his happiness, even his life-- to help save the world.
BLOBBY: That's why Blobby knitted these for Shahla Farzan and Blobby.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Matching sweaters that say I heart Snape? Thanks, Blobby. Mm, I couldn't have said it better myself.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, Shahla, that sweater looks so good on you.
SHAHLA FARZAN: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow, Blobby is very talented. May, what stood out to you about Shahla's Declaration of Greatness?
MAY: I liked how you talked about Snape as a character and how he changed throughout the series and the mystery the entire time of us not knowing whose side he was really on. I also thought that Blobby was an excellent commentator.
[LAUGHTER]
So that was a very interesting take on the professor.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm-hmm. OK. Sam, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why we should cast a stupefy spell on Snape. You've got 30 seconds, and go.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, interesting you bring up the stupefy spell, which Harry and Hermione and Ron used on Neville in book one. And then, very wisely, Dumbledore says, there's many kinds of bravery. But the bravery to stand up to your friends is one of the most hardest to do. And that's what Neville exemplifies.
And Harry doesn't name his child after Neville? He names after Snape? Sure, Snape is very brave. But he has a lot of issues he needed to deal with in a healthy manner, not through taking it out on the child of the girl he was obsessed with!
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
SAM SUKSIRI: And your problem with Gandalf is that he's perfect and always saves the day?
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
SHAHLA FARZAN: Part of the reason why Snape is a crabby dude is that he was intensely bullied as a kid. And I agree, he should probably deal with that in a healthier way. He kind of directs his anger and hurt out in the world for a while because he's working through a lot of trauma, because, again, he's human.
SAM SUKSIRI: Is he working through it?
SHAHLA FARZAN: He's not a demigod angel who was sung into existence. We can't all be perfect like Gandalf. I'm so sorry. I want to be perfect like him. I want his hair and his amazing beard, too. But we can't have everything we want.
SAM SUKSIRI: He's got a great beard.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award some points. Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument.
Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
[BELL DINGING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Shahla and Sam, how are you two feeling so far?
SAM SUKSIRI: Hyped.
[LAUGHTER]
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, I'm over here shouting wingardium leviosa because I'm like floating on the ceiling with excitement.
SAM SUKSIRI: I'm wearing a robe and I'm realizing that it's a bit hot.
[LAUGHTER]
It's part of The Hobbit costume but, boy, hot under the collar.
MOLLY BLOOM: Good for trekking far, not good in a studio.
[LAUGHTER]
All right. It is time for a quick break. Fluff up your beard and give your potion a stir.
MAY: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
ANNOUNCER: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TODD DOUGLAS: I'm Todd Dingley Dangly Douglas, and I'm here with--
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Taylor Loosey Goosey Lincoln.
TODD DOUGLAS: How are you today, pal?
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Oh, not bad. We're having some toasty summer weather. But I'm ready to beat the heat. I've got to blow-up jumbo-sized kiddie pool, an economy sized tub of sunscreen, and a freezer full of ice pops. You should come over.
TODD DOUGLAS: Oh, that sounds so nice. Count me in. But I have to do some chores first, then I will be there with my pineapple print swim trunks, and a cooler of snacks.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: OMG, that reminds me, Todd. I have to show you this video I saw last night. It's so full of fallacies. You gotta falla-see-it to believe it.
TODD DOUGLAS: Hey, nice one. Fallacies are holes in arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. Plus, they make it easier to defeat your side in a debate.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: This one is called a false equivalency. That's when you argue two things are totally the same, but they really only have one thing in common. Here's the tape.
[WHIRRING]
MOTHER: Hey, kiddo. You really need to clean your room. It's like an overgrown jungle in here. I can't even walk across the floor.
KID: Oh, sweet. I'm a jungle guy now like Tarzan. Gotta get some vines so I can swing from my desk to the bed. Problem solved.
MOTHER: I meant you should pick up your laundry and all of these toys from the floor.
KID: Tarzan never had to clean his room. If my room was a jungle like where Tarzan lives, then I shouldn't have to clean it either. We should leave the environment as it is.
MOTHER: That's very eco-minded of you, sweetie. But I need to vacuum. You can start by putting your books back on the shelf where they belong.
KID: But Mom, you said it was a jungle in here. What if the monkeys and jaguars want something to read?
MOTHER: I'm not sure they can read. And while you might be my silly little monkey, I don't think there are any jaguars in the room, dear.
KID: But there could be because it's a jungle.
MOTHER: [SIGHS]
[BUZZING]
TODD DOUGLAS: Ha! That's good entertainment, Tay, but not a good argument. That kid got stuck on a false equivalency fallacy.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: He sure did. He was trying to argue that his room was just like a jungle because both are a bit on the wild side. But that's only one thing they have in common.
TODD DOUGLAS: A jungle and a messy room might both be difficult to walk through, but the similarities end there.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And I'd never do any vacuuming in a jungle. You know what they say.
TODD DOUGLAS: What do they say?
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Nature can't stand the vacuum.
TODD DOUGLAS: Har-har. OK. I'm going to go do my cleaning, but I'll come over later for pool time. Save me some popsicles.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And we'll be back soon with more--
BOTH: State of Debate.
SPEAKER 1: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
ALIEN: [PANTING] It's Alien Exercise Hour. Hi-ya! Hoo-ha! While I stretch my snootles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZING]
I'm going to try Forever Ago, the best history podcast ever.
SPEAKER 2: To understand why anyone would think a TV show could change the world, we need to go way back--
[RECORD SCRATCHING]
--to America in the 1960s.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SPEAKER 3: Rock and roll was pretty new.
SPEAKER 2: Ford released the iconic Mustang muscle--
[BUZZING]
ALIEN: Zorrp! Come back here, podcast!
[MECHANICAL BEEPING]
Must listen to Forever Ago now!
SPEAKER 1: Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SPEAKER 3: Best.
SPEAKER 4: Boom.
SPEAKER 5: Smash. Smash.
SPEAKER 4: Boom.
SPEAKER 3: Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
MAY: And I'm your judge, May.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this practical debate idea from Ria.
RIA: I'm Ria from Maryland. And my debate idea is chores versus homework.
MAY: Too fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Ria thinks should win.
MAY: And now it's back to our debate, Gandalf versus Snape.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round two, the--
[ROBOTIC BLOB]
ROBOTIC VOICE: Micro Round.
[DING]
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Sam and Shahla, the prompt was-- acceptance speech. We asked you to pretend that your side is accepting an award and to write an acceptance speech for that award.
Sam went first last time. So Shahla, you're up. Give us your acceptance speech for Team Snape.
DUMBLEDORE: Students, quiet down, quiet down. Could someone please shoo the owls out of the back window?
[CREAKING SHUT]
Thank you. It's time for our Hogwarts Superlative Awards, decided by you, our students. Our first award is for Most Authentic Student. And the award goes to Hogwarts seventh year student Severus Snape.
[CROWD GASPING]
SNAPE: Thank you, Dumbledore. This award is most unexpected. I can't pretend to know what it means to be the most authentic student. Is it because I refuse to chit chat about the weather or the latest Quidditch scores? Bah! Small talk, who needs it? I much prefer to discuss deeper subjects like the latest innovations in potions brewing and the ethics of mind reading.
Or perhaps you voted for me as most authentic because you never have to guess whether I'm interested in what you're talking about. Chances are, I'm not. But look on the bright side, I'll always be honest with you. If you come to me and ask why you didn't pass your History of Magic exam, I'll say it's because you didn't study. Period, the end.
Anyway, back to this award. Please take it back. I don't do awards. Thank you.
DUMBLEDORE: [LAUGHS] So authentic, 10 points for Severus.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wow, boss move, rejecting the award. OK, Sam, it is your turn. Let's hear your acceptance speech for Team Gandalf.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JACOB MARLEY: Oh, welcome back, everyone, to the 86th Aca-deady-me Awards, the oddly grim award show that honors epic deaths of fictional characters. And I'm your host, Jacob Marley. And our next award is the highest honor for a fictional character. It's the Best Death that actually helps the story.
Our nominees are-- Gandalf the Gray, who single-handedly fought a Balrog, an ancient and powerful demon of fire named Durin's Bane, so that his friends could escape to save Middle-earth, and Severus Snape, who died from a snake bite. And the winner is Gandalf!
[CHEERING]
GANDALF: Wow, what an honor. [CLEARS THROAT] As I plunged into the depths pursuing that fiery beast and as we spent 10 days fighting from the depths of the Earth to the highest mountainside, where I finally vanquished my foe before succumbing to my many injuries and passed beyond the veil, all I could think about was, I hope my sacrifice helped my friends.
[CHEERING]
SNAPE: Wait, wait, wait. Gandalf, I'm going to let you finish. But I just have to say, I had one of the best deaths of all time. I got stuck in a bubble with Voldemort's pet snake, and it bit me.
GANDALF: Um, uh-huh?
SNAPE: Now, you see, Voldemort thought that by killing me, he would become the true master of the Elder Wand. But he made a mistake, so he didn't actually become the master of the Elder Wand.
GANDALF: Mm, so you were bitten by a snake in a bubble. And also, it was a mistake?
SNAPE: OK, you know what? I don't want the award anymore.
GANDALF: Come now, no hard feelings. Let's celebrate with some bubbly!
SNAPE: Ahh! Bubbles! Are there snakes in them?
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, incredible work. OK. May, what did you like about those two acceptance speeches?
MAY: I loved your ideas for both of their awards. They were both very fitting for the characters.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. And Snape rejected both of the awards, ultimately.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Interesting. He's just so humble. He's so humble. I just really want to emphasize that. Also, I'm so glad you brought up the Balrog because the Balrog is cool, right? But who hasn't taken down a giant fiery demon with horns and a fire whip? It's pretty common these days, honestly.
SAM SUKSIRI: It's very relatable, it's what makes him relatable.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award a point. But don't tell us who it's going to. Criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made up your mind?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
GROUP: Ha-ha, hoo-ha!
MOLLY BLOOM: Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round, where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called raid my fridge.
SAM SUKSIRI: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: We want you to tell us what's in your side's fridge. Is it stocked with snacks galore? Is there only spoiled milk, delicious leftovers? Tell us everything about what's in Gandalf, for you, Sam, and Snape's fridge for you, Shahla. And please do it in under one minute.
Debaters, are you ready for your Sneak Attack?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, yeah.
SAM SUKSIRI: I'm ready.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. Sam, we're going to start with you. Let's hear all about Gandalf's goodies.
SAM SUKSIRI: Well, Gandalf does know a lot about what's in other people's larder. When he first goes and visit Bilbo, he's just like, bring out the tea cakes, the seed cakes. When he was at the Prancing Pony, he blessed the beer of the bar owner, whose name is Butterbur, which is very similar to Butterbeer. He put a magical spell to make his beer taste really good.
Gandalf would also have a lot of cream and berry and cheese because he's friends with Tom Bombadil, and that's the thing that Tom Bombadil likes to make for his wife, the lady of the forest. And I think Gandalf would also have a lot of Yakult because he knows the importance of staying regular and microbiotics.
[LAUGHTER]
And then for funsies, he would probably have a bunch of chocolates with a really good minty interior, sort of like a creme de mint but dark chocolate on the outside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely.
SAM SUKSIRI: [LAUGHS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Love that, staying regular, staying fit.
SAM SUKSIRI: And then having a little fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yeah.
SAM SUKSIRI: Right.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right.
SAM SUKSIRI: The importance is balance.
MOLLY BLOOM: Now, Shahla, it's your turn. Tell us about any and all Snape snacks.
SHAHLA FARZAN: OK. Something you probably don't know about Severus Snape is that he's a huge chocolate frog fan. So the chocolate frogs from the Harry Potter universe, they're those magical chocolate frogs that hop around. They look like real frogs, but you can actually eat them. He's really into those. So his fridge is probably like about 90% chocolate frogs.
[LAUGHTER]
Also, pumpkin pie because Severus Snape eats pumpkin pie all year round. So comes home at the end of a long day spent skulking around the castle, whipping his robes back and forth, and what does he do? He sits down. He cracks open that fridge. He gets a big pumpkin pie with a canned whipped cream and he kind of kkkkk all on the top.
Then he digs in. And so he's a really big sweets fan, which is relatable. It's another way that he's so relatable. And it means he has to go to the dentist a lot. So really, the fridge is chock-full of sweets, frogs, pie-- I mean, I would love to get in there, honestly.
MOLLY BLOOM: Me too. Just a fridge full of giant pumpkin pies and chocolate frogs?
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, wait, let me ask you a question, though. When Snape cracks open his fridge, is anybody eating with him?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, no. He's definitely eating alone.
SAM SUKSIRI: He's all alone. Gandalf is always throwing a party. He's going to the house next door and cracking open their fridge.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh, he's setting off those fireworks that everybody loves so much that's terrorizing all the local flora and fauna?
SAM SUKSIRI: They're magic--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Terrorizing the plants.
SAM SUKSIRI: Wait, the flora--
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, man.
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: OK. May, it is time to award a point. Please think about which side impressed you the most with their stocked fridge and award your fourth point.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
--The Final Six.
In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. All right. Shahla, let's hear your six words for how super Snape is.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Fearless hidden hero, Snape saves humanity.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. OK. Sam, it's your turn. Give us six words on the glory of Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: Led Zeppelin loves Gandalf and rock.
[LAUGHTER]
Did you know that, May? Led Zeppelin, huge Lord of the Rings fan.
MAY: Good to know. Oh, yeah, you can catch Lord of the Rings references in half of their songs.
SAM SUKSIRI: How many songs did Led Zeppelin write about Harry Potter? I'm forgetting.
SHAHLA FARZAN: He wrote a whole album about Snape. It's a hidden album that not many people know about, actually.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right. May, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Have you made your decision?
MAY: I have.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, OK. Tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
MAY: I am.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drum roll, please. And the winner is--
MAY: Gandalf.
SAM SUKSIRI: Oh, yeah!
MAY: I would like to say--
SAM SUKSIRI: My dear Bilbo.
MAY: --it was very close. It came down to a single point. And both sides did fantastic. But at the end of the day, the tally says it all. And Gandalf won.
SHAHLA FARZAN: I'm expecto patronum with shock right now, May, truly. But no, honestly, this was such a fun debate. Sam, you're so much fun to debate with. And I was really, really impressed with, just your deep knowledge of Lord of the Rings, which I also love.
And now I can say honestly, I'm also a Gandalf fan. I'm a fan of both. But you were just such a great opponent. And this was the most fun debate.
SAM SUKSIRI: This was a really fun debate. And I loved your way to make Snape, who-- all of his negative qualities in my mind, his isolation, his kind of meanness, you made those all into positives, which I just-- I commend you for turning what I would have thought was the hardest thing to do into your front runner argument.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, that is it for today's debate battle. May crowned Gandalf the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
MAY: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! And APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: --Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Josh Savageau and Brian Hartman, with sound design by--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: --Shahla Farzan--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: --Sanden Totten--
MOLLY BLOOM: --with fact checking by--
REBECCA RAND: --Rebecca Rand.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: --Rosie duPont--
RACHEL BREES: --Rachel Brees--
ANNA GOLDFIELD: --Anna Goldfield--
NICO WISLER: --Nico Gonzalez Wisler--
RUBY GUTHRIE: --Ruby Guthrie--
LAUREN HUMPERT: --Lauren Humpert--
JOSHUA RAY: --Joshua Ray--
MARC SANCHEZ: --Marc Sanchez--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: --Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman.
Sam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
SAM SUKSIRI: I'd like to say thanks to all the librarians I had growing up, because I also got introduced first to Harry Potter and then that led me to reading Lord of the Rings. And so thanks for the recommendations as a kid from my librarians.
And I'm not a librarian, but if you're out there and you like fantasy, I would highly recommend reading Legends and Lattes. It's like medieval fantasy, but also coffee and chocolate.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, I love a book wreck. Thank you so much. How about you, Shahla, any special shout-outs?
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh my gosh, Sam, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was also going to thank my local librarians because they really introduced me to a love of reading. And it was just the most fun ever to enter some of these magical, fantastical worlds-- and especially my St. Louis Public Library here.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, I love public libraries. May, any special thanks or shout-outs?
MAY: Yes, thank you to my family, who fostered my love of reading and of fantasy, in particular. Thank you to JRR Tolkien for creating this amazing universe. And yes, this was a fantastic debate.
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Before we go, let's check in and see who Ria thinks should win the chores versus homework debate.
RIA: I think homework would win because you don't have to get up to do it and because it helps you more later in life so you can get a good job.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line.
And make sure to subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week-- goats versus boa constrictors. Bye-bye.
MAY: Good Bye.
SHAHLA FARZAN: See ya.
SAM SUKSIRI: Bye, read lots of books.
(SINGING) Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
You're the Smash Boom Best
You're the Smash Boom Best
MOLLY BLOOM: Who did that Snape voice? Was that you, Sam?
SAM SUKSIRI: Yeah.
SHAHLA FARZAN: Oh my god, that was so--
MOLLY BLOOM: That was a very good Snape impression.
SHAHLA FARZAN: --amazing.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
SAM SUKSIRI AS SNAPE: So happy to be here.
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.
